Podcast Episode 9: Gut Health Part II (with Transcription)
Jun 28, 2022
Welcome to our 9th episode of True Health Solutions Podcast with Dr. Lonnie Bagwell and Brigitte Spurgeon.
Join us as we discuss the gastrointestinal system including the microbiome. Learn what creates a fully functional system from birth as well as what kills it and sets us up for disease.
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Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (00:00):
So it's another classic example of how we're treating the symptom but not getting to the cause. And then unfortunately, the treatment is causing more problems because now, h Pelo Eye, for example, is, is actually, that's the bacteria that's in the gut. And it's, and it's not all bad, but too much of it, it's definitely bad. Welcome to the True Health Solutions podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, stress, inflammation and functional health clinician,
Brigitte Spurgeon (00:22):
And I'm your co-host Bridget Spurgeon Metabolism and nutrition expert.
Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (00:26):
This podcast is where we bring hope, truth, and inspiration for your holistic health journey,
Brigitte Spurgeon (00:31):
Because the world needs the best version of you.
Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (00:36):
All right, so we're back here with, uh, episode two of our GI series. Um, and I wanna start off reading a quote, actually, lemme go through a little bit of a case study and then the, like, The, this medical doctor, uh, had an encounter with a patient and then ultimately led him to give a quote that I absolutely love. But this is a neurosurgeon and he was called in on a case for a 30 year old female who had presented to the er and that female had had partial paralysis, um, from severe degenerative disc disease. Cuz her, her literally her spine had just collapsed from osteoporosis, which no one could understand why they, they called him into the, into the, um, to put him on the healthcare team because obviously her nervous system was compromised with her spine collapsing. Um, but nobody could figure out what it was.
(01:22):
There was no warning signs or no history consistent with osteoporosis. She literally just started to collapse on herself. And so ultimately, when this guy, when this neurosurgeon, who's now a very famous neurosurgeon, uh, decided to think outside the medical box, uh, he actually just started to look at her history in her nutrition and just started to ask questions outside of what they typically would talk about. And he found out that she, her whole entire life, all she'd eaten was things like processed foods, tons of grains, carbohydrates, uh, her hormones were actually part of her health history were significantly imbalanced. Uh, she had low to no vitamin D levels in her blood. And ultimately she realized that lifestyle and gut health and nutrition, um, you know, was way more impactful with someone's health and could do something crazy like even in a 30 year old calls her spine to start to dissolve.
(02:10):
Um, you know, so he kind of got serious about that. So he took it upon himself now to learn. Smart guy started to learn about the microbiome, learn about the gut, and he decided to work with her on that, just doing the basic things. And sure enough, she ended up making a full recovery and, and living a, you know, respectable quality of life in sp in spite of the fact that just years before, you know, she was losing her spine. And if you've been with us for more than five minutes, you know that we are pretty passionate about how healthy that spine and nervous system is. But ultimately, he led to something that I love. And this quote and that case study and reading about that neurosurgeon is what led me to, to start to do a lot of gut stuff, you know, whatever it is now, a decade ago, um, and be really passionate about it.
(02:49):
And just say, if we're gonna impact people, um, with their health, then we better not only be experts when it comes to the nervous system and the spine, but we better be experts when it comes to the gut. And sure enough, enough, here's the quote. And he says here, health is going to be revolutionized by the science that is uncovered in the bright brain gut access over the next few decades, which we're now halfway through that few decades that he said, I believe the diseases that currently have no cure or known cause will be tied to this axis. Eventually, diseases like als, ms, Lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, autism, depression, Crohn's Disease, Parkinson's, and Alzheimer's, just to name a few. So we're talking about like here, here's a top, uh, Harvard trained medical doctor, well known neurosurgeon, um, and he basically abandoned the medical way of thinking and dove right into the natural way of thinking, focusing on the brain, gut access.
(03:46):
And of course now he has millions of followers from all over the world that have get amazing results, um, similar to our patients here in the office. So anyway, having said that, you know, when we disrupt the microbiome and talk about the brain gut access here real quick, your favorite nerve, our favorite nerve, and a super popular nerve, uh, inside the human bodies that vaus nerve, and a lot of people have heard of the vagus nerve. Um, but what people don't realize is that it's a, and, and we had to look up the anatomy before it's a lower portion of the Vegas nerve actually is really in intimately connected with the, uh, the mic communicating between the microbiome and the brain function itself. And so when we talk about, when we see things like, um, like I, uh, when I got stressed, I felt it in my stomach, right?
(04:32):
Um, or when I, um, when my stomach was upset from something that I ate, it gave me a headache, right? It's like, so there's this intimate connection between the brain and the gut and along this axis. And it's a vagus nerve that is deeply impacted by the microbiome being shifted, um, in or outta balance. Uh, and it it affects brain function. And so that's why there's also such a deep correlation between anxiety and depression and like we talked about on the last episode with serotonin, right? If you're not producing proper amounts of serotonin, and if your microbiome's off and you're, and therefore disrupting the communication, uh, you know, from through the vagus nerve to your brain, then you're really set up for failure in the category of any neurotransmitter related illnesses or problems like anxiety, depression, um, even brain fog and focus issues, ADHD and children, et cetera. So, um, so huge, huge, you know, implications here when it comes to making sure that that gut's healthy.
Brigitte Spurgeon (05:30):
Yeah, well that story is so impactful. I remember when first hearing you share that, that case study. And you know, I, I just think of, you know, the patients that I work with on a daily basis when I come to, when they come to see me, I would say 25% of them have that similar lifestyle. They have been eating processed foods, chemical laden foods, carbo, a lot of carbohydrates, um, their whole lives. So like that's really scary that in our day and age, the way that our food supply is set up, the way that the cost of food is, the way that the grocery stores are set up, that that actually describes a large percentage of people. And to see at just 30 years old, her body literally was just giving up on her. That was, it's was starting to, to crumble. So that's very sad.
(06:27):
That actually grieves me. It makes me want to just run around and scream to everyone, like, you know, please take care of your body, eat, eat the right foods, eat whole foods, keep inflammation down, et cetera. But the other part of that is there's so much hope in that story because just with learning about the microbiome, learning about the way that food impacts and just making those changes, like the proper solution paradigm, that that person was able to have a full recovery. So amen to the fact that the body heals itself. The body has this amazing ability to heal itself if we do the right things.
Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (07:09):
Amen. Absolutely. Amen. And when we, and when we do that process fit, and then leaky gut is the topic, we need to tackle that real quick and talk a little bit more about what that's, that's about. Because that's, again, everybody knows the name. Few people understand what it is exactly. And the truth is, is, and that would be, that would be more of how that patient ended up in such a devastating condition, right? Um, and how so many people are dealing with autoimmune type illnesses and, and you know, cause it may not even be for autoimmunity, it could just be autoimmune type symptomatology related to having leaky gut. Now, I will say this, this for clarity, leaky gut, kind of more of a theory than anything, gut permeability, very real. Okay? And so for the purpose of this po we can talk leaky gut all day long and, and it kind of has a broader umbrella, but gut permeability very well, or I'm gonna say better understood and accepted terminology within the commu medical community.
(08:01):
Um, but, and that's all, all that's talking about is that those tight cells that are called tight junctions that actually hold, uh, your gut lining, your cells of your gut lining together when they loosen for various reasons, for inflammatory reasons, for all the things that we talked about on the last episode, all the things that we do or don't do, um, and eating bad fats and eating sugars and all that, then that disrupts the, yep, that disrupts that tight junction. And so now partially digested foods hard to digest foods, um, allergens, viruses, you name it, can now pass through that junction that was supposed to have been, you know, that junction was supposed to guard from all that. So it can't get into the bloodstream. Now those things can, and then we have all kinds of problems. But then the main thing that happens there at the level of those junctions pulling apart is an immune response, right?
(08:48):
So inflammation comes to the area because inflammation is fluid, Fluid has a bunch of immune cells in it, right? Wherever it is in the body. So now inflammation comes, brings the fluid, brings the immune cells, and we have inflammation like all over the place now because now that's in the bloodstream from the gut. And so we have all kinds of white blood cells and such coming into the area, ready to fight, whatever it is that made its way through there. And that's how people end up with a lot of food allergies is because they obviously it would notify the bacteria virus, but now it's starting to perceive partially digested food as the enemy. And so it starts to attack that. So we'll run food tests on people. We don't do it as much anymore, but we run a lot of food testing. And, um, and so we'll see foods that pop up and they'll, you know, they'll, they'll literally be triggering, triggering like all four of the IgG immune responses that you can possibly have every time they eat something.
(09:40):
And that food could be, uh, absolutely could be gluten, um, it could be dairy, could be eggs the most common, but also it could be things like black pepper and kale, right? Uh, it could be different vegetables, It just depends on whichever, you know, whatever got through that, that intestinal permeability, um, and triggered that immune response. And so, so that's a little bit more about what leaky gut is, um, or gut permeability is. And so a lot of people then will say, Okay, that sounds great, but like, you know, and you mentioned some food testing, but how do I know if I have it? Well, one, we really just have to listen to the patient. I think world class histories is, this comes to my mind. Taking a world class history from the patient is so important. Um, cuz 80% of the diagnosis comes from that history.
(10:24):
And if you go through all the different symptoms that are related to intestinal permeability, you can really get a good idea. Um, but then a stool test is the gold standard for us. And understanding how someone's overall GI health is and our philosophy of definitely testing, not guessing, but also, um, you know, I just, I, I've heard this a decade ago and I'll never stop saying it, but the, the life is, our quality of life is determined by the quality of questions that we ask. And so if you ask better questions, which means doing a better test, then you'll get better answers, which means accurate clinical biomarkers related to the patient so that you can take better action. So now you're actually looking at the cause and you're acting on the cause of the problems versus, you know, trying to manage the symptoms, which are, you know, our sick care system has certainly done a stellar job of kind of staying focused on the symptoms over the years.
(11:14):
And so anyway, so that's just kind of the, that's what leaky gut, gut permeability is. And that's our, our approach to it is try to determine if there are any allergens, confirm that that's more of what it is, confirm if there's any allergens present, and then figure out, okay, where's the disruption happening? Because you could actually just take a bunch of stuff. Let me say this too. You could take a bunch of stuff to repair the tight junctions cause that's logical. And people would say, and that might be part of the protocol that we would use, but you still haven't answered the question, How do they get there? How, how do they get separated? What in my diet needs to change specifically for me? Right? Um, cuz some people are gonna have problems with certain foods that other people, people don't, et cetera, right? So it's a good consult conversation that happens there.
(11:56):
But then we have to say, okay, and this is what shows up on our stool testing is do you have pathological bacteria? Like are like, I just had a patient, uh, yesterday, they have giardia, right? So obviously some water somewhere gave 'em giardia. Well, again, you can do a whole lot of different things, you know, to try to help your gut, but if you don't get rid of the Giardia, right, it's gonna keep wrecking that gut lining. It's an infection that's gonna keep inflaming that, that tissue. Um, so do you have any pathologies? That's that's number one. And they need to go immediately, right? And then you have your normal bacteria, of course. Do you have the appropriate amount of that normal bacteria in order to maintain healthy, uh, gut lining and mucosa, right? So that's important. Cause if you don't have those, then you can be at a deficit leading to those tight junctions loosening up.
(12:41):
Um, and then there's opportunistic bacteria and this is the bacteria that's not supposed to be there. It's not necessarily pathological. Um, but it's, we found it and it's there for some reason. And the real incident with that is, is that, um, there are some of them that actually can trigger autoimmune type responses and stuff like that, I should say that. Um, but there are opportunistic bacteria, um, that, that are just outcompeting, you know, so for the, for the, when the food comes along, the prebiotics and the post biotics I guess, and all that comes along, then they'll consume, you know, that material so that your good bacteria doesn't have as much life giving nutrition getting to it. And now again, you can see how the scales are shifting, you know, out of balance, um, for your microbiome. Um, so, um, so anyway, so those are, that's like pages one and two of the stool tests where we just go through and we make sure, like where, where are the bacteria?
(13:33):
Are there any ones that are outcompete in other ones or is there pathology present? And then once we kind of have an understanding of that, now we'll get into, back to when we very first started the first episode, get into the anatomy, right? Like just do you have inside the stomach itself? Like is there proper acid based balance? You know, and I would say the high majority of the people that we test, um, I'm gonna say in over 80%, I feel confident in that number, uh, do not have enough, uh, acid in their stomach so they're not even breaking the foods down the way that it's supposed to.
Brigitte Spurgeon (14:08):
So,
Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (14:08):
And, and go ahead.
Brigitte Spurgeon (14:10):
Oh, I was just gonna say, so I, I actually come into that qu uh, quite a bit with, with patients because one of the things that I'm an advocate of, I I really believe obviously in the pH of the body has to be optimal so that it functions optimally and obviously to, to, if you want your body to burn fat optimally or if you want your immune system to function optimally, um, you know, it's all about that pH balance. And so, um, coming from an unhealthy lifestyle, so many people, um, they're to acidic. So we do, like, I like to use alkaline water in a very monitored and like very fun item amount. I don't like for our patients to go over a liter of alkaline water and it's mildly alkaline water, but it's just, it's just supportive as their bodies are healing. But one thing I always have to warn against is don't drink your alkaline water while you're eating <laugh> because, because you don't want that alkaline water then to go neutralize the natural acid that your stomach is producing that you, that's what your stomach needs to digest the food properly.
(15:13):
And you also need that acidity even, you know, if you do have a opportun opportunistic bacteria come in with your food or, or, or something you're drinking, um, you, you know, that acid plays a role in killing bacteria and viruses as as well. Um, another thing that does it is like the, an acids or, or the medications, um, that are designed to neutralize acid that come up for like acid reflux or something. But once again, we have to be careful that that's not going into our stomach when it's meant to be an acidic pH there and then it's just neutralizing that acid,
Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (15:50):
Right? And so many people, like they get reflux and then they wanna shut down the acid. But the reality is, is that it's pathologic bacteria or something else that's actually causing it. And so it's another classic example of how we're treating the symptom but not getting to the cause. And then unfortunately the treatment is causing more problems because now H PEI for example, is, is actually, that's the bacteria that's in the gut and it's, and it's not all bad, but too much of it is definitely bad. And so, but that's the bacteria that actually, um, does two things. One, it actually affects the acid based balance, you know, based off of our ingestion of certain foods. And then also, which if it goes outta control, people will know that HPL R is what causes ulcers and things like that. Um, but the other thing that it does is it, um, it affects the release of our satiety hormone growing, right?
(16:38):
So that's certainly related to weight management, um, and appetite and those types of things too. So it's really important to have the proper acid based balance, you know, so that you're not, um, suppressing the hung, you know, the, uh, satiety hormone. Um, and so we, we over consume that way, right? Um, and so h pelo really, really important. Um, you know, when we're looking on a stool test, then once we get to that point, do you are, is your pancreas producing the necessary enzymes in order to be able to break down the food? So this gets to be another frustrating thing for people where they'll say, I'm doing everything right. But then when you run a stool test, you know, we, we wanna see their enzymes maybe about 500. And I just looked at a lab earlier today and the enzyme is less than 100.
(17:23):
And again, a really frustrated patient when it came to their digestive system, but they, I mean unfortunately they're gonna stay frustrated and they could spend another $5,000 on supplements and it's not gonna make a difference if they're not restoring the enzymes necessary to be able to break the food down. Um, and then there's biomarkers on there that tell us how, how's the liver functioning? How's the gallbladder functioning? Of course that's super important for removing toxicity. Um, and uh, and maintaining proper metabolics. Um, and then we get into all the inflammatory markers, which again, we know inflammation being the underlying cause of 21st century disease. So make sure that that's, that, that if, if the patient needs to be given something to help reduce inflammation specifically in the digestive system, um, you know, then, then we will handle that. Now one of the coolest things that's on the new test that we've been using is, um, a lot of people are like me where, um, uh, where you did take antibiotics so they're less like you, more like me cuz you're in the United States now.
(18:18):
And that's what we do is we take antibiotics for everything. And so, uh, and so we, we took a bunch of 'em, but now we can see there's esha genetic part of the testing that actually tells us what, what is the genetic susceptibility of that particular antibiotic that I took as far as my microbiome is concerned. So cuz some of us are genetically gonna be predisposed for being more susceptible or less susceptible to different antibiotics that we take based off of our microbiome genetics. And so, which is really neat to see that because, and, and more for like, just I guess answering questions, you know, it's like, how did I get like this? Well it, you know, you took 17 rounds of, you know, tetracycline, you know, throughout your lifetime and it turns out here that, you know, you're, you're super susceptible to that. And so, you know, we're gonna fix that now.
(19:05):
And, and, and people at the end of the day when people are, are suffering from GI stuff, a lot of times it's, that's not the most important thing to them. They just wanna get it fixed because it's such a massive disruptor to their life. I mean, I'm remembering a story right now where there, I mean, there have been patients who have been having accidents in the car, just getting to the office, definitely being honest, right? Or that haven't been able to hold down a job until they could get a job that was within 10 steps of the bathroom and then they hold onto that job, even if it's a terrible job for them. I remember, you know, um, and it, like, it was a major stressor in their life, but it was the only job where they could get to the bathroom fast enough so that that wasn't a major disruptor. So it's, you know, so while we can answer some questions as far as like, how did we get here, mainly we just wanna see the current state of things and ask those good questions and then just build something, build a program to get us away from, you know, all those digestive issues. So,
Brigitte Spurgeon (19:56):
Uh, you know, that reminded me of a story when I was, uh, working clinically on the chiropractic side, uh, with patient intake. And I remember, uh, actually, and this was, uh, in a couple of cases, but I remember a patient coming in with, uh, with severe Crohn's disease and they were just so, you know, their whole life is disrupted by this. And they had just been put on this medication, I believe it was like a monthly or, or a bi-monthly shot and it was very, very expensive drug. And so, um, we took, uh, cervical x-rays, we had full intake cervical x-rays and it was one of the worst, um, C1 angles that I've ever seen clinically. And um, which, you know, I dunno, Dr. Bagwell, would you, do you wanna speak about that just pertaining to the vagus nerve and the connection to the gut? Cuz I remember having, you know, the patient's like, I don't understand why you're looking at my cervical spine when, you know, I can't hold anything in my gi Um, so could you maybe explain that?
Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (21:09):
Yeah, it just goes back to what we talked about earlier with, um, the vagus nerve actually, uh, comes out of the upper cervical area. And so, um, so that's why we would look so high in, in the anatomy to determine if there's any interference. So when you have a misalignment in the spine, it causes interference with the nerves. In this case, we're trying to identify as their interference with nerves that are exiting, um, or, and or around the upper cervical area. Uh, and the vagus nerve drops all the way down to control digestion. It's actually the nerve, and I wasn't clear on this earlier, so I'll say it real quick, but the vagus nerve is pri the primary nerve for your parasympathetic, which is your body's ability to properly rest and heal, digest food properly. Here we are talking about that now and just overall recovery. And so, um, so if you have subluxation or interference with the nerves at the upper cervical area, it can affect the vagus nerve, which leaves you stuck more in a sympathetic dominant state, which is fight flight while your body's suppressed in its ability to digest foods and recover and heal.
Brigitte Spurgeon (22:11):
Can I ask you, um, one last question be, uh, before we wrap up this episode as a question I also get a lot from, from our patients, and that is, so maybe they're having some kind of, some kind of GI symptom, whether it be constipation or or diarrhea or bloating, something like that. And, and they say, Should I take a, uh, probiotic or, or they say, I, you know, I take a probiotic and <laugh>. It's one of those things, once again, get alloted. I'm like, that is such a loaded question. Yeah. You know, once, once again, because the microbiome is so complex and everyone is so unique, right? And individual. So could you speak to that question for our listeners?
Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (23:02):
Yeah, no, uh, yeah, super common question. Um, I was a big fan. Uh, I, I've, as a, I've been a clinician while probiotics have become vogue and, uh, and so, uh, I've, I've taken probiotics, I've recommended probiotics over the years. Now what we understand to be more of the real, So now that we're doing hundreds of tests, we can see the majority of people actually have dysbiosis or overgrowth of their bacteria. Okay? So number one, I've given out less probiotics in the last year, um, than ever in history because we, we have a little bit of a different approach to that disbiosis or overgrowth of bacteria. We wanna knock it down then eventually reinoculate it, maybe with some good bacteria. There is something to be said for some specific strands, you know, Lars, one of 'em where you can, that can really be helpful for people's health and not necessarily negatively impact overgrowth.
(23:52):
Um, or it can support healthy bacteria growth. But now we're getting into like custom recommendations designer probiotics, right? Like now we're getting into, which speaks more to the specificity and complexity of the microbiome. Um, but, uh, I'm not a huge fan of, of just broad spectrum, you know, 10 bazillion, um, international units of, or, you know, uh, parts per million or whatever parts per billion of, uh, of the probiotics. I'm not a huge fan of that anymore at all. Um, that's my personal opinion, that's my clinical philosophy. It's, but it's based on lots of lab work where we have to ask some better questions there so we can get to the cause of the problem and not just throw it. Now a lot of people will feel symptomatically better. So a lot of function medicine, even medical doctors just give out probiotics like candy, you know, because they, you know, cuz again, they, they happen to be more symptom focused, but we're more calls focused.
(24:44):
And so if we can just get proper di And here's another thing too, again, I go back to what I said. If you're not fixing the acid, ba acid in your gut, if you're not having proper enzymes, if you're not killing off pathological bacteria, if you're not killing off yeast and parasites and all that stuff first, um, then it's at best it's a temporary fix if it's a fix at all. And really it's just a bandaid again, at best. So I'm not a huge fan. And another thing related to that question, and then we'll wrap up for today is the consumption of things like kombucha and probiotic drinks. Cuz now there's like 50 to choose from if you walk into Whole Foods or even across the street at our common foods, you know, regular food source locally here. Um, and, and again, that's something that, that might be amazing for some people and it might be symptomatic relief for some people, but based on testing, um, not necessarily like the, the, the nuclear dosing of our gut, of all these strains of probiotics, it, it seems to be working against people's health more often than it's working for people's health.
(25:47):
I'll just say that. Um, but with testing, with a talking history and look doing proper testing, you know, we would know more. It is a loaded question that's like four episodes by itself, but we'll end it there for today.
Brigitte Spurgeon (25:58):
Fantastic. Well thank you for answering that. Hopeful. My patients are listening <laugh>.
Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (26:04):
Yeah, right on. And that's gonna wrap us up for episode two of our GI series. I'm sure we'll be back to this topic plenty of times in the future. Uh, but thank you again for joining us on True Health Solutions. Make sure that you click to subscribe so you get all the notifications for when we release our next episode. And that's all I have for today. Bridget, you got anything else for our listeners?
Brigitte Spurgeon (26:26):
Keep asking the right questions.
Dr. Lonnie Bagwell, DC (26:29):
Thanks for joining us today on True Health Solutions Podcast. Make sure that you click to subscribe. Also go to our website, www.truehealthcharlotte.com, where you can download any resources related to today show or any future shows. And lastly, if you search for True Health Center Group on Facebook, you'll be able to join our free health community. We look forward to seeing you there.
